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Internet Society 
Accessibility SIG 


Accessible Banking for the Blind in the 
21st Century: Experience Sharing from 
the Developed and Developing Countries 

26th March 2021 13:00-14:30 UTC 

Internet Society Accessibility SIG Webinar - Accessible Banking for 
the Blind in the 21st Century: Experience Sharing from the 
Developed and Developing Countries 

March 26 2021 

JUDITH HELLERSTEIN: Okay. Good morning, good afternoon, good evening. 

Welcome to the Accessibility SIG webinar on banking issues and how to make banking 
more accessible for people with low vision. 

We are So glad to see all of you here. We have a great response to this webinar. And | 
know people are streaming in now, but we have a packed agenda. So we couldn't wait 

So we are so glad that everyone is here to join us. 
And we are just looking forward to this webinar. 

My name is Judith Hellerstein. I'm the secretary of the Accessibility SIG organisation. We 
are glad to have you here with us. And this is the, this series was made possible through a 
grant that we had gotten from the Internet Society for looking at how are we going, during 
the pandemic, how do we work and make things more accessibility for people with 

disabilities. There's a lot of issues that are problematic for people with disabilities. When 
we went straight to a virtual world. 

We are looking at what are the obstacles, what are the barriers along the way and 
featuring different series. This is probably going to be the concluding webinar for this 
series. We had a series on accessible documents. We had a series on opening series at 
looking at all the issues of cognitive, hearing, one of the early ones discussed the 
problems with masks for people with hearing disabilities. 

We did a focus on people with hearing disabilities and we've done, we did another section 
with what's happening in partnership with ISOC Armenia, which was a fascinating thing 
about working on apps they are developing, what they have been doing. Now we are 
doing a series on banking. 

| am thanking you for coming to this series and stay tuned for more series of this. We are 
going to be doing a newseries starting at later times. 

If people are interested in other sessions, we have, join our WhatsApp group and we are 
working on planning our April event which is going to be at the end of April. Stay tuned 
and let us know if you have any ideas for any panels or any other discussions. We are very 
much looking forward to your ideas and suggestions of topics. We can't do this, we can 
only do this with your suggestions. 

Right now I'll turn it over to our moderator, who planned this whole series, Muhammad 
Shabbir who is also our President. Shabbir, thank you so much for organising this 
amazing panel. 

Shabbir, over to you. 

MUHAMMAD SHABBIR: Hello, everyone. Thank you very much, Judith Hellerstein, for the 
introduction and for starting this webinar. 

Ladies and gentlemen, as Judith told you, I'm Muhammad Shabbir from Pakistan and 
good evening. 

Today's webinar is very special because it addresses the issue of persons with specifically 
blindness or low vision. And it addresses, though it talks just about the banking issues, but 
there may be certain overlapping issues from the [inaudible] of persons with disabilities 
and digital accessibility. So we will be discussing. 

One of the most interesting things about this webinar is that we have a very impressive 
line-up of speakers before us. Seven speakers from seven different countries. And all of 
them are, most of them they themselves have experience of living with vision loss. Most 
of them, six of them, rather, to be exact, they have vision loss. And they deal with the 
banking system in their own respective countries. 

The seventh speaker, Abdel-Qader, he himself is not has vision loss, but he has many 
years of working with blindness. Imran Shaikh is from Jordan, and we have an 
experienced pool of speakers and also the participants, those who will be joining and 
questioning the speakers, that will also add to the value of this webinar. 

Ladies and gentlemen, as Judith told you, we have a full agenda. Therefore, without any 
further ado | would first invite Majid Khan, a dear friend, thank you, Majid to be a speaker 
at this impressive webinar. Thank you very much for joining us today. | would like you to 
share your experience with us. 

MAJID KHAN: Thank you so much, guys and thank you for having me this wonderful 
webinar. And | would like to welcome everyone. My name is Majid Khan. Originally I'm 
from Pakistan. And | have been here in the United States almost 16 years. | am an 
instructor, | have been teaching almost 12 years. And about banking, guys, | think this is 
very important webinar and | would like to say to all of you that you are doing excellent. 

Especially, | would say this is great lack of awareness about blind people and what the 
blind people can do in banking, especially screen reader softwares and these apps. Even if 
| am here in the United States, whenever | go to bank and especially | would say the lower 
staff members, they are absolutely unaware even here in the United States. | have to tell 
them what can! do on my cell phone or my screen reader like JAWS which might be, you 
are all aware of the screen reader software. 

Once they got to know about these things they are very, very much helpful, especially for 
me. What I am having here, you know, a lot of good things which makes me, all banking 
like my transactions, my checking account. For instance, | will give you a few examples. 
Here in the United States we are all having braille ATM and very accessible and very easy 
to use. My lot of friends, although | never got experience about the braille but | have seen 
everywhere. But my friends they are doing this thing and they said it is very accessible, 
very easy if you want to withdraw your money. 

The talking machines like when you take your headphones or ear buds and you can use, it 
is very accessible. Once you are using and they make sure that it is very safe for you. Once 
you turn on that option, talking option, you can turn off the screen as well. The screen will 

be completely black, like dark black screen so nobody can access, other people can see 
your screen. 

And like if you prefer, you want to read your braille bank statement, like monthly when 
you receive the statement if you request them, so | want to have my braille bank like 
monthly statement. So they can send you a statement in braille so you can read that one. 

If you are partially blind, like if you have some vision, you can read and they can send you 
the large print statement, bank statement. If you need a device to read your statement, so 
they provide you that device as well. 

Another thing that maybe you got, guys don't know about that, it is called access 
checkbook. Access checkbook is very important. It is a checkbook and it is all lines are 
raised lines where you can feel it. You can touch the lines and you can write your 
checkbooks. Your check. 

And also very important, another thing, especially this problem | was facing when | was in 
Pakistan. They were always asking me how are you going to sign the signature? This is 
very important. Here it gives you the options. How would you like to sign? 

First where we go like vocational training centers and schools, they teach you how to sign, 
like sighted signature. Our blind folks in Pakistan which | Know very well, they are very 
much educated, like they got very good master degree, Ph.D. degree, but unfortunately 
they are birth blind and by birth blind don't know how to sign sighted signatures. It is 
important to teach them to sign, at least their names. 

Once they will go to the bank and they can show them that | can sign because the banking 
sector, the big problem which they create, how are you going to sign it? And one more 
thing which | would like to tell. They said your signature will not match every time. And it is 
very hard even for sighted people to, the same signature all the time. So therefore, we 
have to convince them we can sign. Plus you can take your signature guide with you. 
Stamp also you can use it, a signature stamp. But the signature stamp is a little risky. Here 
the people it is risky, people can take your stamp and they can, you know, fraud, 
fraudulent signature. They can do that. 

The thing | think we need to teach bankers, especially | would say the lower staff. It might 
be the managers and Officers are good and they can listen to you and provide you the 
good benefits and facilities. 

But the lower staff, we need to teach them. We need to tell them whenever the visually 
impaired people come to the bank, please guide them and tell them what to do. 

Any questions so far, people, guys? 

MUHAMMAD SHABBIR: Majid, we will take questions at the end. If you are finished with 
your intervention | will invite the next speaker. 

MAJID KHAN: Okay, sure. 

MUHAMMAD SHABBIR: Thank you so much, Majid. Of course, there are certain 
comments in the chat. Those would be for our speakers if there are any questions in the 
end and the speakers would have the chance themselves to check the chat and then 
comment in the interactive session. 

MAJID KHAN: Okay, thank you. 
MUHAMMAD SHABBIR: Yes, thank you, Majid, thank you very much for your intervention. 

These are, of course, not the complete things that banking sector has for people with 
vision impairment in the United States of America. But you certainly have highlighted 
certain facilities that are provided to people with vision impairment in the USA. When it 
comes to accessibility, USA is considered to be the role model, so-called. | would not say 
the role model, but so-called role model because they tend to have a lot of these facilities 
and accessibility guidelines and they follow them as well. 

Now let's come to the other part of the world, my part of the world. | would go to, before | 
come to Pakistan, | will go to Bangladesh and ask Vashkar Bhattacharjee to share his 
experiences. What is the experience in Bangladesh? How do people with blindness and 
low vision use banking? 

Vashkar, the floor is yours. | forgot to thank Majid to keep his intervention in time. So 
Vashkar, over to you. 

VASHKAR BHATTACHARJEE: Thank you very much, Mr. President and ISOC, Internet 
Accessibility SIG. 

I'm happy to tell you today we are celebrating 50 years of independence. It is 50 years of 
independence day in Bangladesh. Within these 50 years we really progress. Still we have 
lots of challenges in accessing banking service, digital inclusion also a big challenge for us. 

Even though last one decade, we are transforming into a digital Bangladesh. We are now 
trying to make it inclusive and accessible for all. 

Ladies and gentlemen, we have almost 3 million people are visually impaired in 
Bangladesh. Even a few years ago they were not able to open a bank account because 
banks were reluctant to open bank accountings of persons with visual disabilities. Our 
Bangladesh banks gave a circular, and order which is like anyone can open a bank 
account only by, | can say 12 cents. Ten BDD. If someone would like to open a bank 
account, they can open it by only 12 cents, almost ten BDD. 

This is a great move by the Bangladesh government and the state bank of Bangladesh, 
Bangladesh bank. Also they have given some circular like people with disabilities can get 
loan service, et cetera. But in terms of accessibility, there is not much happen. Still we are 
not able to use any banking service by our own. 

Including Internet banking. Personally | am using different banking service, but 
unfortunately they are not accessible at all. There is no accessibility in ATM. No 
accessibility for credit card, et cetera. 

Even some maximum bank are not really providing us ATM card or credit card. Check is, 
of course, not accessible at all. And Internet-based banking are not accessible. Websites 
are not accessible. So even though there is a law, it is called persons with disabilities 
protection act 2013. There is a separate section for accessibility, digital inclusion, 
eServices, et cetera. And if any service provider does not comply with the law, any persons 
with disabilities can go to court for getting compensation. But unfortunately, none of us is 
getting that type of relief from the court. 

But still we are trying. We are doing some advocacy, lobbying. As you know, I'm one who is 
working with the Bangladesh government as a consultant on accessibility. We A2I, that is a 
programme of ITD vision and | also work with the Prime Minister of Bangladesh. It is 
hopeful that one day all of the banking services will be accessible and inclusive for all. 

Another issue, literacy among the blind people are very low. Whenever | go for advocacy, 
as customers, they are very poor. They do their best to make it inclusive for all. | didn't 
imagine that any bank will give us bank statement in braille. We are now working hard to 
work with the banking sector of Bangladesh to make things accessible. 

They are donating some money now to some disability organisations but they are not 
investing for making their service accessible and inclusive. 

Nowadays in Bangladesh, mobile banking becomes very popular. We all are using mobile 
banking. So this is also inaccessible. | couldn't find any apps in mobile banking sector 
which are accessible for people with disabilities. 

This is a big challenge for us. And another issue is many mobile phone providers like 
iPhone, they don't have any texting in Bengali. We are highly dependent on the Android 
platform. This is another challenge. We are promoting open source technologies and 
Google text to speech which is popular among persons with visual disabilities. However, 
the government is planning to develop the national accessibility guideline. They are now 
making nationality help line, accessible for all types of people with disabilities. 

They are making accessible and more 4,000 owe services are 
dependable. Blind people can make this accessible. They are trying to make one of the 
largest eLearning platform for people with disabilities and visually impaired people can 
use that also. 

Another issue is we in Bangladesh already adopted the UN Convention on the Rights of 
Persons with Disabilities. As you know there's Article 9 and Article 21 which is 
guaranteeing accessibility for people with disabilities with information as a service. | 
already told you the law, | followed by the UNCRPD. That is persons with disabilities rights 
protection act 2013. They have the accessibility section. 

And also Bangladesh wants to achieve these goals by 2030. UNCRPD -- are important tools 
for us. Despite all challenges, we hope to overcome all our challenges and will enjoy equal 
rights with others for accessing banking services. 

Thank you, Internet Society for giving me the opportunity to speak here. Thank you, Mr. 
Shabbir, from Pakistan for inviting me here. 

MUHAMMAD SHABBIR: Thank you very much, Vashkar, for this very excellent 
intervention. So Pakistan, for those who have never had interaction with people with 
visual impairment and with regard to banking sectors, they now would be realising 
different kind of issues in different parts of the world. 

Now let's go to the Middle East to the Arab world and see how people with vision 
impairment and banking sectors are dealing with one another there. 

We have amongst us Abdel-Qader Suleiman, a good friend who has been working on 
accessibility and disability for people with disabilities in general and people with vision 
impairment in particular. So he himself does not suffer, but | count him as a person who is 
ingrained in people with vision impairments. 

So Abdel-Qader Suleiman, the floor is yours. You have seven minutes. 

>> Abdel-Qader: Thank you very much, my friend. Let me start by talking about Jordan 
and our countries are not far away from other countries and from other regions. 

Actually, | will divide my speech in two sections. The first section is how blind people 
suffers from banking system before the COVID and the second section, what procedures 
and what interaction from the government has been done during the COVID-19. 

So | think before the five or six years blind persons in our countries and most of our 
countries, especially in Jordan, was incompetent because if you want to go to the bank, | 
mean before seven years, if you want to go to the bank as a blind person you have to 
bring with you two witnesses people. And everything you do inside the bank, withdraw or 
pay, you need signature from two persons. And that was actually something hard from 
the blind person. It is not go with the independence of those people. 

So we have problems with people with disabilities especially for the blind people. That we 
have asked the government to cancel this condition for the back. So blind people after 
that can start doing banking and financial contribution in the bank independently. 

How is that going? So we have sit together with the DPOs and NGOs in Jordan and 
discussed what blind people need from the bank. We have found that he needs exactly 
the same as people with no impairment needs. He wants to withdraw his money. He 
wants to pay. He wants to, let me say doing the business, et cetera. 

So we have started to contribute to discuss with the government how to amend first of all 
the policy with the financial and banking, the central bank, and how we can start from 

So fortunately we have succeeded to make people open a bank account independently. 
Blind people now in Jordan can go to the bank and open a bank account. That is the first 

The second step, was the problem of ATM card or the visa card so blind people were not 
allowed to get this card unless they are provided some conditions and they can access to 
several services. 

So what we have done that we also have amended this, asked the administration in 
Jordan to allow people with vision impairment to go to Internet banking and phone 
banking. We have something called phone banking. You can do everything with your 
account from the phone. Just you need your bank number, bank account number and you 

have a special passcode for the phone call. And you can doing whatever you need, except, 
of course, to withdraw the money. 

So still we have a problem, how to withdraw the money without this difficult conditions. 
So the government, | think COVID-19 was a good chance to the government and to the 
people to improve the banking system in general. 

So what we have done from two years that we have something called E wallet. This 
depends on your phone number. Now every person with a disability or without a disability 
in Jordan has their own E wallet. You can go to your telecommunications company, tem 
them that | want to open an e Wallet terms and conditions. This allows you to send money 
from your phone application. 

We have discussed this issue with the banking system, central bank actually and the 
telecommunications companies. They have designed a special application for this issue. 
So now | think every person can receive money, his invoices and his bills and withdraw 
money without a visa card or ATM card or business card. Just what you need to go to any 
ATM, just from your application, just choose that | want to withdraw, for example, $100. 
So the banking system will send you a passcode. Just enter the passcode in the ATM and 
you will get your money. 

| think this is very important. It becomes easy for persons with disabilities. 

Also through the application you can pay your bills, pay your fees, government fees. You 
can transfer money from the e wallet. | think most banks provide online also bank 
account. It is not necessary to visit any branch or ATMs. You can do everything from here. 

| think still we have a minor problem. It is not a big problem, | think, because most 
problems have been done by the government and by the DPOs and NGOs in Jordan. 

So we have two problems. First of all, we can't get a braille statement from the bank. And 
although we have our law, the disability laws in Jordan, which is established and launched 
in 2017, but as all of us are aware, that braille costs some money for people. So it was 
difficult to make any statement in braille. 

What we have done is that you can order, request your statement, an online statement. It 
will be sent to your phone number or you can get your statement from the bank 
application. And of course, it will be accessible for voice-overs. 

The last one is the Internet connection. Internet connection here in Jordan unfortunately 
is not so good. Sometimes you get some problems with the banking connection or just for 

your transactions. So | think that's all. As | said, Jordan is not far away from the other 
countries. | think we have, we are facing the same problems. Fortunately, during COVID- 
19 we have succeeded to maintain these problems and to succeed in doing something 
good for blind persons. Thank you very much. That's all for now. 

MUHAMMAD SHABBIR: Thank you very much, Abdul Qadir for your intervention. 

The next person | am going to invite, | am grateful to him that despite his difficulties, he is 
from Uganda, a good friend Dr. Abdul Busuulwa, if | say it wrong, please correct me. 

This gentleman lost his father just past week. We condole him and pray that he and his 
family recover from this tragedy. Only for that reason | would be grateful to him. But 
despite his Internet connectivity issues, he has been able to join us. So with great 
appreciation and thanks, Abdul, the floor is yours. 

ABDUL QADIR: Thank you very much, Muhammad. Thank you for the moderation. And 
thank you for the kind words. 

| can also add that today is my birthday. So that is again another good thing to add. 

| want to start from where somebody from Bangladesh ended. Issues of signing. Those 
are challenges here in Uganda. We used to have problems signing so that we opened 
bank accounts. But with time, as blind people became many, those who went to school 
and those who had jobs, it became easy to convince the banking sector that we can use 
thumb prints to sign for opening up bank accounts and also to sign for money and any 
other transaction. 

But it is still a challenge in many banks here. And. 

Secondly, you will find that in Uganda we have just made a policy. It is called an ICT policy 
for persons with disabilities. It is still in draft form. So many of the accessibility features 
that blinds people benefit from are not yet there. 

Like one time | went to bank for a quick study to find out whether they know about an 
accessible ATM. They told me, you know, these ATMs can be made to speak, but we don't 
know how to put that speech device on the network. So right now the ATMs cannot speak. 
So our experience here is that you have to work with an assistant or a guide in order to 
use your ATM card, but we are not restricted on the acquisition of ATM cards and visa 

Thirdly, there is also an improvement around Internet banking and the mobile banking. 
For mobile banking, many banks have developed apps that you can use safely with your 
phone. The only problem is that they are not so accessible. So you will need to work with 
a trusted assistant to help you through the navigations, especially if you want to doa 
transaction. But many banks at least have that. 

And for Internet banking, we have that electronic identifier. But again somebody has to 
read for you the code that displays on the screen of the identifier so that you can feed it in 
to the account, especially if you want to open the -- to log on, to log on. Sometimes you 
need to use that code. 

Everything here so far, we are not so independent. | think what you can do independently, 
if you have an iPhone or another screen reader on your phone, you can easily read your 
bank statement. That is very possible. 

Two, you Can open an account and you ask for the digital version of it. That is also not 
restricted. But if you are doing any transaction, you will have to use an assistant in order 
to transact properly. Because even entering the digital platform for the first time, they use 
that feature, the Captcha, which is images, small, small pictures and they need some 
sighted person to interpret them in order to feed them into the account, the user name 
and password, so you are able to enter into the system. 

Again as | emphasize we still rely a lot on trusted will personal assistants in order to do 
digital banking. 

Yet it should be possible for somebody to, for a blind person to do their own banking. Like 
one time | was in the Netherlands and | was using ABN AMRO. They have a particular 
section within their website where they, somebody configures it for you. You should be 
able to do all the transactions you want without the assistance of somebody sighted. 

For example, you can input the monies that you want to send and when you are about to 
send, they ask for the PIN code. When you put it in your identifier, it will automatically be 
read by the computer and you are able to send. And the transaction will be complete. 

Here it is still an issue of working with assistants. And finally, there is also a problem of 
ignorance around the banking sector itself. When you go to the bank and you want to ask 
them to make the banking system accessible, many times they will be asking you many 
questions that you may answer but not to their satisfaction. For example, when | talked 
about the ATM, | told them this is something that is very easy and very possible. You can 

make this accessible. Those were about seven to eight years ago. But no improvement 
has been made around that. 

So you find that we still have a lot of issues. 

Maybe when this law, the ICT policy for persons with disabilities comes out any time, 
maybe we Shall have a stronger mandate to go and advocate for more accessibility in the 
banking sector. 

Thank you very much, Muhammad. 

MUHAMMAD SHABBIR: Abdul, thank you very much for this wonderful intervention and 
very precise, to the point issues that you just highlighted and thank you very much once 
again for joining us today and for sharing your thoughts despite all the hardships that you 
have in your days. 

| hope my speakers will not mind if | shuffle around the agenda a bit. And so since we 
have heard a lot about the countries which are developing or under developed or these 
countries about Africa and Asia, now let's go once again to Europe and see what Gerry 
Ellis -- Gerry, by the way, works with a bank and has a lot of experience of working with 
accessibility and disability, particularly with digital accessibility. 

Gerry, my question for you, what type of issues? Majid highlighted wonderful facilities that 
people with vision impairment in our part of the world wish to have. What are the issues 
that you guys face with your banks? 

Gerry, the floor is yours. 
GERRY ELLIS: Okay. So thank you, Shabbir, and thank you to the Internet Society. 

In Ireland we are quite developed in banking, but we are not that developed in the area of 
accessibility. From branch to branch it is generally inaccessible but they are very helpful. 
There are no barriers to say you must bring people with you or whatever. 

You can get braille statements sent to you, fine. You can normally access the Internet 
offerings fairly well. But the branches are not that accessible. 

But | didn't really want to talk about banking in Ireland as such. | wanted to talk more 
about banking in general. | wanted to talk about what are some of the barriers and maybe 
some of the resolutions. 

So if you look at banking in general, there are a couple of stakeholders. Customers and 
bankers themselves, but there are also the regulators. We have to keep the regulators in 

So if we look at bankers, if you break them down further you have colleagues, in other 
words you have staff members. You have customers and you have communities. Banks 
are often at the center of communities. So what is good for the bank is good for the 
community. It is much wider than a one to one relationship. It is a relationship with an 
entire community and in fact with an entire society. 

| worked in technology for 40 years. | want to talk a little bit about technology. Technology 
can be an outrageous benefit or an outrageous barrier. We have to help make sure it is a 
benefit and not a barrier. 

So technology, one of the things it can do, it can promote, the banks can see cost savings 
by closing branches and push people towards using technology rather than traditional 
branches. We have to watch out for that and make sure that technology is accessible. 

Another thing that technology can do, it can allow organisations from outside of your 
country to provide technological solutions in your country. So it is not so easy for us to 
sort of lobby or to try to influence those if they are coming from outside the country. 

So | wanted to look at a particular area of technology, which is artificial intelligence. It is an 
area I'm particularly interested in and actually doing a course on at the moment. 

The influence of artificial intelligence is growing and growing in technology in general but 
also in banking to try to say, well, what customers have been good customers, who is 
good to lend to or whoever. 

But two of the key concepts in artificial intelligence is bias and fairness. We have to ensure 
that our needs are included in those key concepts of fairness and bias. 

So if we don't do that, it could very quickly we will find that minorities, including people 
with disabilities, are ignored because this is only technology. It is not people looking at 
stuff. It is not people that are looking at how to make decisions. It is machines. And 
machines are based on prior learning. And if our needs are not in there, we will lose out. 

The other area, of course, within banking is that we want to have people with disabilities 
on the staff and increasingly Al is being used to filter applications, to maybe help with who 
will be promoted, who won't be. 

Again, if our needs are not taken into account we will lose out. 

So who do we need to lobby to make sure that this happens? Well, what we need to 
promote, of course, are internationally recognised standards by like the WCAG and the 
UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities and particularly | would say 
universal design which says that we should be consulted early in the design process and 
rights to choose the services and processes. That is key. 

Lobbying people higher in the organisation that you are trying to promote accessibility, 
those who have the financial might, those who are making the financial decisions, they 
need to be lobbied. 

We need to lobby those at the bottom of the organisation, those who are the technology 
people doing the will designing, doing the developing, doing the testing. We need to lobby 
them to make sure that they know how to do it. Once the people are outside, this is the 
way you want to do it, we need to teach them how do you do it. 

But we also have to talk to government and to regulators. Remember, banking is very 
heavily regulated. We have to lobby banking representative organisations. But we also 
have to lobby the technology representative organisations, like in Ireland our BDR 
computer society. So we need to promote universal design and so on with those 

And of course, in third level institutions where technology is important. 

My final conclusion is promote accessibility, promote it at every level. Recognize who are 
the stakeholders. 

The last point | would say, this is not just as aspiration. Accenture about 18 months ago 
produced a report that demonstrated very clearly that accessibility and diversity is not just 
the right thing to do but it is economically beneficial to those organisations. 

Keep it in mind. Nothing about us without us. Thank you. 

MUHAMMAD SHABBIR: Thank you very much, Gerry. | am already learning a little bit 
behind time. So without any further ado | now come to my own homeland and would 
request a good friend Imran Shaikh who is the Director of media and communication of 
Pakistan Council to give his intervention and talk about. Although | am quite familiar with 
the issues in Pakistan, but | Know the participants would like to listen to you. Imran, the 
floor is yours. 

IMRAN SHAIKH: Thank you for giving me the floor, Muhammad Shabbir. | am very glad to 
listen to the speakers around the globe in this brilliant webinar. 

And | am working with the Council in Pakistan. | did my masters in 2005. | was partially 
sighted until 2016. As | am a patient and | ultimately lost my eyesight in 2016 or 2017 due 
to retinitis pigmentosa. | worked hard for the rights of visually impaired people in 
Pakistan, especially in the banking sector. 

In 2014 the regulator in Pakistan of all banks in Pakistan issued a policy for the rights of, 
banking rights of the Visually Impaired Persons in Pakistan. 

And after some time, the policy was not initiated by different banks. 

Before 2014, many of the visually impaired people have their bank accounts just on behalf 
of their friendly relationship with the branch manager because a few years back we had a 
system that the branch manager was the authority to open a bank account of any person 
in Pakistan. And to also issue them ATM card or credit cards. 

But later on the policy was revised and the regulator organisation in Pakistan decided to 
centralize the banking procedures and then they also started to issue a policy regarding 
the rights of visual impaired persons. 

One thing | observed in this discussion that there is acommon problem around the globe 
is unawareness of visually impaired persons that what they can do or what they cannot. 

So until 2016 or 2017, many of us tried to open their bank accounts and tried to have ATM 
cards. But majority of them got failed. 

Then fortunately | started to coordinate with the banks and convinced them. And | 
showed them that policy which was issued by the regulator and | also tried to advocate 
them that visually impaired persons can operate their bank accounts and also they can 
use ATM cards and use mobile banking applications if they were allowed. 

Then some banks started to open individual bank accounts and tried to issue them ATM 

Then our country also, we don't have accessible ATM machines, but we have lots of banks, 
popular banks who have developed their mobile applications. Those are extremely 
accessible with the voice over. And also with the top pack and Android. We have two 
categories of the regulatory policy. As our constitution for our country says that there 

should not be any discrimination on the basis of disability, that person cannot have the 
same as he or she, his colleague has the same. 

So the bank started that literate visually impaired and illiterate visually impaired could not 
be equated. 

In banking, signatures are very important. Due to visual impairment, majority of visually 
impaired people cannot sign. The banks asked us to get training and try to sign the 
checks. Then | again convinced them that this is not an issue. Now the world is going to 
the biometric system. So why should we try to be trained to sign the checks? And cana 
sighted person get training of braille? If he is not needed? Then they said okay, give us a 
solution. How can we consider a person who is literate or illiterate? Then we gave them 
the solution. A person who is having, who have any kind of degree, who he or she will be 
considered as literate. He is putting their thumb, not because of his illiteracy, due to his 
visual impairment. Then the banks came to this point and by the grace of God in Pakistan 
the majority of banks are providing services to the visually impaired people without 

They issue ATM cards. They issue debit cards. They are issuing the mobile bank, Internet 
banking. And they are also opening individual accounts. 

But lastly, the problem is only that the lowest staff of the branches is unaware how to deal 
with the visually impaired persons. And unfortunately, | have observed that majority of 
our visually impaired persons do not have a good behavior with the branch staff. That is 
why they suffer more than they would not. 

So these are the benefits and the problems we are facing in our country. Our government 
is SO Suppose sieve with the rights of persons with disabilities, but there is a problem on 

This is because of the unawareness of the general masses. The DPOs of our country 
should establish good relationship with the management of the organisations, different 
organisations, and the visually impaired community should also establish a friendly 
atmosphere with our masses. So by these two things we can overcome the problems 
faced by the visually impaired persons, specifically in banking sectors. 

There are many banks who are convinced and they are providing banking services to the 
Visually Impaired Persons. 

Thank you very much to the Accessibility SIG, especially Shabbir. I'm thankful to all of you 
from all over the world who have participated in this beautiful webinar. 

Actually, | worked hard for the rights of visually impaired persons in banking sectors. That 
is why I'm very glad that this issue is being taken on the priority and is being discussed on 
the world level. Thank you very much. 

MUHAMMAD SHABBIR: Thank you very much, Imran. | really am grateful that you joined 
us today and shared your thoughts with us. 

Ladies and gentlemen, now we come to the last but certainly not the least speaker of 
today, Anatoliy Popko from Moscow, Russia. 

Avery good friend and a visual rights activist in Moscow and beyond. 
Anatoliy, without further ado, the floor is yours. 

ANATOLIY POPKO: Thank you, Shabbir. Thank you very much, Shabbir. Thank you to all 
of the participants and especially to those of us who share the situation with banking 
accessibility in your countries. 

| want to share real quick what is happening in terms of banking accessibility in Russia. 
But first of all | will just point out | am totally blind myself and | am 38 years old. | 
represent Russian Federation in G3 ICT/smart cities for all initiative. That is global initiative 
for inclusive ICTs and | also run in the dark Russian, that is in Moscow. 

That is myself. | run a programme that trains blind and visually impaired people to use 
computers and other technologies. | know the problem of Russian blind and visually 
impaired community. 

Now, let's go to the financial system of Russian Federation. There is a central bank of 
Russia. The entire movement towards greater financial accessibility started say five, 
maybe six years ago when the initiative actually was, the talk about financial accessibility 
was initiated by Russian singer and activist, a beautiful lady named Diana -- like Stevie 
wonder in the U.S. She is blind herself and she raised the problem of financial 
inaccessibility. The idea that Russian bank notes are not accessible. If you try to touch 
them. So there is no, there is supposedly are tactile marks, but well, | haven't met a blind 
person who was able to distinguish one bank note from the other using those tactile dots 
and lines. 

So she brought up that question and discussed it with the Chair of Russian central bank. 
So they started, that impressed our central bank and they started to think well, what can 
we do to kind of improve the situation? 

But basically the work, the actual work began in both central bank of Russia with that 
regulator and within the largest bank, largest commercial bank of Russia which is called 
the Subir bank and that bank also decided to treat clients with disabilities as a separate 
category of clients. 

So they organised the division called special bank within the bank structure. So they 
started, they also started to push for greater accessibility. 

Another force behind that accessibility movement is like the official figure, this lady who is 
a counselor for Vladimir Putin, the President of Russia. And she also just brought that 
financial accessibility problem in a couple of formal and informal speeches. And the ball 
so to say Started rolling. 

So what is happening now? Within the central bank of Russia there is a steering 
Committee which | am a proud member of. And that Committee Working Group maybe 
issued several official letters to all the financial institutions encouraging strongly 
encouraging them to become aware of clients with disabilities and with special needs and 
more various accommodation methods that could be implemented in terms of digital 
accessibility. That is the high priority. In terms of just branches. 

So the part that concerns the central bank of Russia, | should point out that the bank of 
Russia officials acted as coauthors of the Russian national standards on digital 
accessibility. | initiated this work and we do have a national standard on digital 
accessibility which mirrors WCAG2.1. Basically we do have this standard. Although it is not 
obligatory. No organisation as of now is obliged to following guidelines represented there. 

So the regulator has a strong and clear position on financial accessibility. The second part 
which | mentioned, Subir bank, it is the largest bank, over 100 million clients. It serves 
traditionally the majority of clients with disabilities. 

So what they did for the time being, they have special division called special bank. They 
have two totally blind testers. And they test all their products, digital products for 

Now | am, | use mobile banking a lot. | also can afford myself to just use all the features of 
mobile banking application. And | can transfer money. | can see my bank account 
situation. And | really am as independent in terms of my personal finances as probably | 
can hope for. 

When | come to the branch of Subir bank, if the branch has more than four windows or 
more there is a specially trained person with an electronic system who helps navigating to 

the proper window, who helps with ATM if it doesn't, you know, if it is not accessible. 
Although there are over 20,000 accessible ATMs all over Russia, Russian Federation. 

So | think that is more or less it. | only wanted to also point out that Moscow region in 
Russia may differ, there is a regional difference. But in Moscow, me and my blind peers, 
friends, colleagues, we welcome and heavily rely on wireless systems like Apple pay, 
Google pay. | can use those payment systems a lot. So financial sphere, as really has 
become more or less very accessible. But only if we are talking about the largest bank of 
Russia. There are still financial institutions that yes, they are hesitant to make their digital 
products accessible. They do not want to educate their staff. And we still have some kind 
of problems there. Thank you. 

MUHAMMAD SHABBIR: Thank you very much, Anatoliy for this wonderful intervention. 

With this our speakers part is over and Judith, can we ask that, | think there are only like 
15, 16 minutes left. 

So captioner and Judith, can you allow us like 15, 20, 25 minutes more so that we can have 
some more participation if there are questions? 

JUDITH HELLERSTEIN: Sure. If we run over. Right now we have about 20 minutes left. And 
so | think that should be fine. We may run over five or ten minutes at most. | don't think 
we need much longer. 

MUHAMMAD SHABBIR: Okay. Just | will take two points. So listening to these seven 
wonderful interventions, there are two main trends that come more often than not which 
are more common. One is the ignorance of the banking sector about capabilities of the 
people with disabilities in general and people with blindness in particular. 

Since our topic is about people with visual impairment. 

The ignorance about the capabilities and what they can do. And this drives the patronizing 
attitude. The attitude that drives that people with visual impairments are unable to do 
banking independently. Of course, there are many differences as well in the developed 
and Developing Countries which anyone attending this webinar from the beginning would 
have been obvious for everyone. | will not become any barrier between the participants 
and my wonderful speakers any more. 

So there are some questions in the Chair and also you can raise your hand and Judith will 
call upon you. Judith, can you start calling upon people and allow them to ask questions? 

JUDITH HELLERSTEIN: Yes, this is Judith Hellerstein for the record. Mahmood is first. Go 
ahead and unmute yourself. 

MAHMOOD KHALIL: Thank you very much. First of all | appreciate the Internet Society 
for creating such a beautiful webinar. And we all could listen and listen from around the 

| just wanted to add one thing. Well, first of all, let me tell you | am from Pakistan. After 
listening to brother Imran Shaikh, from Russia, from Jordan and Bangladesh and America 
and other parts as well. We can all understand that Developed Countries had a lot more 
accessibility than obviously the developing ones. My concern and my question from all 
these fellows was that we always complain that we are not given enough opportunities. 
We are not given enough options to avail the better accessibility standards, better 
accessible banking. 

Do we actually think or do we actually work to create awareness within the blind and 
within the disabled community to be stronger enough and to learn better accessibility and 
then advocate for their rights? Or we just beat about the bushes? That is what | have seen 
in my life. | can ask for something, but | don't know what | am asking for. So don't we 
ourselves need a certain level of education and better accessibility understanding within 
our own community? That was my question, please. 

JUDITH HELLERSTEIN: Thank you so much. Do we have an answer? Do you want to take 
another question? 

MUHAMMAD SHABBIR: Do we have any other hands up? 
JUDITH HELLERSTEIN: Yes, we do. We have Abed. 
MUHAMMAD SHABBIR: Abed, go ahead. 

ABED: Thank you. Just two questions | think for the speakers. The first one, | hear a little 
about the bank staff training. That's number one. Can anybody tell us about this training, 
how it was? About what issues? Because | am a bit concerned about what kind of training 
do the staff concerning the ability of blind persons to do the banking, transfers, for 
example, or communication. 

Number two, | have little herald about the policies. Are there any special policies in the 
participant countries that can tell me, are there special regulations or laws or something 
about the banking system? That allowed people with disabilities to do whatever they 
want? Thank you. 

JUDITH HELLERSTEIN: Thanks so much for that. 

MUHAMMAD SHABBIR: So anyone from the speakers would like to, would anyone like to 
take charge of the question that Mahmood talked? 

JUDITH HELLERSTEIN: Yes and Majid can also talk about the U.S. Why don't you go first 
and talk about the U.S.? 

MAJID KHAN: Yes, thank you. The first question which Mahmood actually was asking, | 
think, brother, this is not a problem. | think our blind community, especially our indeed as 
people are blind or visually impaired, they are well educated and they know what they are 

The problem actually is in the sighted community. They don't know and they cannot 
understand the blind person, what they can do. | think now what we need to do, | have a 
suggestion, Shabbir and the rest of the other people. If you guys can make a small group 
and also that practice you can do like in Bangladesh and Jordan and Russia and the rest of 
the other Developed Countries as well. You can make a small group and they can go to 
the different banks and demonstrate to them about devices which you have right now. 
For instance, you have the cell phones and you have laptops and you have softwares. You 
can show them that these devices we have and through these devices we can have access 
actually using our apps and websites and the accounts and we can manage easily. 

Also you guys can invite them and visit schools, your organisation. And invite them and 
show them your abilities. So they can trust on you, yes, they can do that. 

So the problem is trust. 
MUHAMMAD SHABBIR: Yes, Majid, thank you. 
The question from Abed, who would like to take that? 

JUDITH HELLERSTEIN: One minute, Majid, also one of the reasons why the U.S. has at 
least at the ATMs and other areas, is because banks are considered part of -- the 
Americans with Disabilities Act has made banks focus on accessibility issues. Not 
necessarily online, but actually the ATMs and the other transactions. It is just like maybe 
the tellers are not aware. But that is why most of the ATMs have headphones and 
speakers and braille because of those laws. 

So many of the advances the U.S. have is because of the Americans with Disabilities Act. 

Yes, Vashkar? 

VASHKAR BHATTACHARIEE: Yes, | quickly would like to address this question. You know, 
in our region, if | just consider my country, like only 4 percent of people with visual 
disabilities are going into school. When they are under the poverty loin. Of course, they 
are not prepared to use the various technologies. 

So even though there is many, many DPOs up there, unfortunately all the DPOs are 
governed and managed like the NGO. It looks like a project of the NGO. 

Unfortunately the global movement has very little lasting impact in countries like 
Bangladesh. They are very -- they know about UNCRPD but they are not implementing 
anything. Big donors, Bill Gates, et cetera, are paying for disability inclusion projects but 
unfortunately they are not considering accessibility. 

Banking service are not prepared for the persons with disabilities. Even people with visual 
disabilities are not confident to ask for these services. This is a very critical situation. We 
can blame us, but we don't have the ability to overcome these challenges without the help 
without the state, without the help of the community and so-called disability related 
NGOs, especially NGOs who are just kidding with us. They never invite us to work with 

MUHAMMAD SHABBIR: Thank you very much, Vashkar, for that intervention. One 
question that Abed asked, are there any specific policies related to visual accessibility and 
the banking sector. Yes, we heard several speakers talk about digital technology policies, 
they are there, they exist. Whether they are implemented and to what extent they are 
implemented is another story and that is the story we are discussing today. Policies do 
exist from the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, high level policies 
to the individual sector, banking sector and other sector level policies. But when it comes 
to implementation, then we are faced with barriers. And we try to remove those barriers. 

As far as the question of educating ourselves of Mahmood Khalid, yes, you are very much 
right. We need to educate people with disabilities and people with blindness as well. 

In my information, individuals would be educated when they need the information. But 
institutions, they have no excuse, no excuse at all of being remaining ignorant because if 
individuals remain ignorant, they impact none. But if institutions an banks and the other 
government sectors remain ignorant, they impact the societies. 

So in this way | would say just people with disabilities are needed to be educated, yes, but 
more than that snugs and the regulators need to be educated. 

Judith, do we have any questions? 

JUDITH HELLERSTEIN: We have one question earlier from the chat. And that was about 
the European laws. Are there different European laws that ensure accessibility of braille 
for like braille statements or braille ATMs or speaking ATMs? 

Gerry, do you have any comments from Europe? 

GERRY ELLIS: Hi, yeah. There is just recently passed in Europe, there is what is called the 
European accessibility act. And that will force over the next three or four years financial 
institutions to implement accessibility. 

For instance, one of the things that it does, it doesn't say that every ATM in Europe must 
be accessible, but it does say that no producer of ATMs can produce any accessible ATMs. 
Indirectly it will make ATMs accessible. 

One | would mention specifically from Europe, from the European standards organisation 
is called EN301549. That is a standard on making technology accessible. It has been 
adopted verbatim by Australia. | understand that it is going to be, what you call, 
implemented verbatim in Canada. It is also being looked at by Mexico. This is a very good 
standard for making technology accessible. | spoke about the importance of technology 
going forward earlier on. | suggest that we could lobby for that in other countries. 

JUDITH HELLERSTEIN: Thanks so much, Gerry. If you can put that in the chat that also 
would be helpful. 

We have a question from Anatoliy. 
MUHAMMAD SHABBIR: Anatoliy, you have a comment? 

ANATOLIY POPKO: Just a real quick one. Yes, | second what you just said in terms of 
responsibility of government and financial institutions. 

And yes, there are some specific regulations that central bank of Russia issued. And those 
documents are directed to financial institutions in Russia. lf there is a need for those, | can 
probably send them. Although the translation would be on you guys' part if that is 

JUDITH HELLERSTEIN: Thank you so much. 

MUHAMMAD SHABBIR: Thank you, Anatoliy. | saw a hand raised and then lowered by 

JUDITH HELLERSTEIN: Before Suleiman, we have Muzaffar and then Salman. 

MUZAFFAR ALI: First of all | would like to thank for the organisers for this webinar. 

The first issue is awareness. We have no webinar within the community about how banks 
operate, especially for us. We should have actually special need for awareness. This 
session is definitely a big role to actually play for making awareness within our 

| wish that you should organise such webinars in the future as well. 

| am actually living in Pakistan and | talk about my experience. | have actually opened my 
account. | got definitely a good behavior with the bank staff. And they actually offered me 
the ATM debit card, the facility, Internet banking and everything. But the thing is, our ATM 
machines are not so accessible. So definitely they are working a lot to make it accessible. 

MUHAMMAD SHABBIR: Yes, Muzaffar, yes, thank you, we hear you. Sorry to cut you 
short. There is less time and more speakers to entertain. Thank you very much. We hear 
your suggestion as well. 

This webinar is neither first nor last. As the President of ISOC Accessibility SIG | will say 
take we will try to organise such webinars, such events again. We are not stopping here. If 
you have any suggestions, do let us know about the topics. And if you want to organise a 
webinar or session on your own with the support of Accessibility SIG, of course we are 
there to support you. 

Thank you once again for your intervention. 

MUHAMMED SALMAN SIDDIQUI: Hello, guys. My name is Muhammed Salman Siddiqui. 
Thank you, Shabbir, for organising such a wonderful session. One of our fellows that says 
blind people, those who go to the branch to open the accounts, they also have not good 
behavior with the staff. Banking staff. But my question is, that if the staff is irritating, if 
they are not eager to listen to us, | had very bitter experiences when | tried to open the 
account in some of the banks of my country. So what is the solution then? Should we 
come back without fighting our case? If they are not listening by polite behavior, our 
fellow said our behavior is not good with the staff, what do you suggest? What should we 
do? Thank you. 

MUHAMMAD SHABBIR: Imran, you raised this point, think I, if | am not wrong, that 
people with blindness their behavior is not good when they go to the bank. Am | wrong? 
Was that you or was it someone else? 

IMRAN SHAIKH: Yes, | raised this point. And you are saying that if a staff is not treating 
you well, you have, you don't need to fight them and shout them as they are not treating 
you. But you have different forums. You have complaint forum to that bank and you have 
also the state bank of Pakistan as a forum. You can approach them that so and so branch 
treated me badly and as a policy state back has issued these rules and they are not a wide 
biding the rules. You don't need to lose your temper. You should approach the 
appropriate person for guidance. 

MUHAMMAD SHABBIR: Thank you, Imran. Judith, do we have any other hands raised? 

JUDITH HELLERSTEIN: We do not, but we have a question in the chat. Some people 
wondered if Gerry could put the report that he talked about, it was one of the larger 
consulting firms in the chat. 

Then we have a comment by Andy Heath who said we are in a bubble. We need to know 
what is known here to be disseminated everywhere. It is mostly an education issue and 
sometimes a political issue. But | find that true with the education. 

And Andy, do you want to express your opinion while you have your hand up? 

ANDY HEATH: Yes, | do. | didn't say it is mostly an educational problem. | said it is both an 
education and a political problem. And | have said some of this before on previous talks. 
I'll say them again. 

| still think there is a missing layer. | think if you had a system where people wanted to do 
accessibility, where you've got the stuff at the top, the UNCRPD and then you've got 
guidelines and standards coming down for that, which is around the detail, but you still 
have a situation unless you have an ethos in countries, in diverse countries that they want 
to do accessibility, then you still have the situation where it can be manipulated. It can be 
got around. Somebody can try to say, trying to save money, do things cheaply. Oh, | don't 
know want to do that, | don't know about that. It is manipulatable. | think there is a 
missing layer. Specifically | think that missing layer is about use and ease. And to a lesser 
extent goals. As well. 

Gerry Ellis knows what I'm talking about. I'm talking about, for example, some of the 
material that started in guide 71 but is now been developed in other places as well. 

| hope | can develop that as a theme with you on a future call. 


ANDY HEATH: | think unless you have all of these pieces together you are going to have 
the situation where things are exploited. Where people are exploited. Because standards 
don't fit into an overall framework. They are just little pieces of the problem. 

JUDITH HELLERSTEIN: Yes. Andy, that is perfectly -- even organisations who do have the 
care and they take care to make a website accessible, they don't realize that afterwards it 
becomes non-accessible as people upload documents that are not accessible. And there is 
a lack of awareness among people on how to do accessibility. 

ANDY HEATH: Absolutely. But there are so many pieces of this that have to fit together to 
make it work. 

JUDITH HELLERSTEIN: Yes, a lot of pieces. Even in the U.S. which is in many places it is 
working because of the Americans with Disabilities Act, our online stuff is not as good 
because there is not the same level of enforcement of that because the ADA, although it 
extends to that, it is not as explicit. So there is not a push for that. There is a political push 
not to adopt certain new features and guides. Hopefully that is going to be changing. 

>> Well, | hope it is changing. | certainly put my own countries within the countries that try 
to writing he will out of doing stuff and that responds to particular sets of lobbies with lots 
of money rather than people who are saying accessibility is important, certainly. But that 
is a political issue. Sometimes one government will have a different view and sometimes 
they won't. 


JUDITH HELLERSTEIN: And Nicholas' question in a chat: In Sweden we have problems 
with recruiting developers who know about accessibility. 

| don't think it is a problem of recruiting. It is a problem of awareness of the web 
accessibility guidelines, whether it is the WCAG, the authoring guidelines. | think it is lack 
of awareness. Every developer can do that. They just are not aware. They are not told this 
is a mandatory feature. That is an issue. 

And | know we are winding down. 

Any last questions before we wind down? It has been an excellent webinar, about 45 
people at one time. We have a lot of discussions here. 

But Shabbir, do you have any other final thoughts? 

MUHAMMAD SHABBIR: Yes, | just have to thank all the participants, the speakers, not the 
least. Thank you very much for saying yes to my call. Thank you very much to all the 
participants for joining us today and enlightening us with your thoughts. And in joining 
the discussion. 

Thank you to the Internet Society for providing us this forum and the funding for 
organising such kind of events and webinars. 

My thanks are also due to our wonderful captioner who remain in the background and 
made our webinar accessible. 

Thank you to you as well. 

Last but not the least, thank you to my team: Judith, Gerry, Judith, Greg, Joly and Gunela in 
supporting me in organisation of all the events and this webinar as well. 

This was the sixth and the last webinar in the current series that we ran. But as | said in 
the beginning, we are not stopping here. There is another proposal that we are putting up 
and soon you will be hearing from us that we are organising a new series of webinars. 

If you have any ideas in this regard on what subject we should organise our webinar on, 
and also any other suggestions, do share that with us at Accessibility Thank you 
very much once again for everyone for joining us today. | lastly say that keep the 
discussion on. It is the way of discussion that we keep on finding the solutions. So keep 
the discussions on and some day, somewhere around the time we will find a solution. 
Thank you again. 

JUDITH HELLERSTEIN: Thanks again. If you have a session, to host these sessions we 
apply for a grant apply for a grant to pay for the captioning and sign language if it is 
needed. We always ask if people want sign language. This time nobody asked for that. In 
the future we want to make sure we do this in different languages. | know there has been 
requests for other languages, but we didn't have money set aside in this budget. 

But send any request in and also here is my plug. If you are interested in pushing, 
promoting accessibility and you are a member of an ISOC chapter, not a SIG like ours, 
Muhammad Shabbir, our President, is running in a chapter elections. If you are a member 
of a chapter, encourage your representatives to promote accessibility issues. | know 
Shabbir will be a great representative for this. That's my plug. 

MUHAMMAD SHABBIR: Thanks, Judith, for that. 

JUDITH HELLERSTEIN: Joly will send out the information on how you can watch this again. 
Right now it is always on the livestream, but it will be archived on,, 
the way back machine, it will be there for anyone who wants it. Thanks again for coming 

to this great webinar and have a great rest of your day and thanks to the captioner for 
staying the extra ten minutes. 

(Chorus of thank you and goodbye.)